Treat Your Podcast As A Brand with Greg Wasserman
Why do podcasters have such a hard time growing their shows organically? The answer is multi-faceted, like most things in life and business, but there is one thing that we know for sure.
If you treat your podcast like a brand, the decisions you make for your show will be different. You’ll focus on different metrics, frame your conversations in a different way and the way you share on social media will be more strategic.
I recently had a super fun conversation with Greg Wasserman, the Head of Growth, Partnerships, and Community at Castmagic, an AI platform for content repurposing. Greg is a multifaceted podcast expert, having sold podcast advertising, run three podcast listening platforms before joining Castmagic. I know that I don’t normally talk to folks who don’t have podcasts themselves, but I felt that Greg could add a lot of value for you podcasters out there.
In our conversation, we discussed what it actually means to “grow” a podcast, what makes a podcast good, the importance of branding, and the ever-evolving role of AI in podcasting.
Growing a Show: More Than Just Download Numbers
Growing a show goes beyond just looking at download numbers. It is about building a brand and engaging with your audience on various platforms. Greg suggests taking a more spread-out approach by tracking metrics and engagement levels across different channels. By expanding your reach and understanding what your audience wants, you can create a more successful and impactful podcast.
The Importance of Branding in Podcasting
Many podcasters fail to recognise that they are building a brand when they create a podcast. Greg and I discussed the need to invest in your brand and treat yourself as a media company. By doing so, you can leverage your podcast as a medium for content creation and use it to strengthen your brand across multiple platforms. Greg also encourages podcasters to think beyond just the podcast itself and explore ways to engage with their audience beyond the audio content.
What Makes a Podcast Good
In Greg’s line of work, he listens to a lot of podcasts, and so I thought it’d be interesting to see what he believes makes a show good. He emphasized the importance of being able to connect with the host, sound quality, and engaging content. Greg also shared what he doesn’t like about ad insertions and how they can impact the listener's experience. He expressed his appreciation for hosts who break the fourth wall and engage directly with their audience.
AI: Leveling the Playing Field for Podcasters
As Head of Growth, Partnerships, and Community at Castmagic, Greg has firsthand experience with AI tools and their impact on podcasting. He believes that AI is a game-changer for podcasters, levelling the playing field and allowing everyone to repurpose in ways that would previously take them so much longer to do.. AI tools, like Castmagic, enable podcasters to access all of their content, repurpose it, and create an evergreen content strategy. This not only saves time but also helps podcasters reach a wider audience and grow their brand beyond the boundaries of their podcast.
My conversation with Greg Wasserman was a lot of fun. I personally really valued the honest responses that Greg gave. He doesn’t sugar coat things and as someone who also operates that way, I found that refreshing.
If you are a podcaster or aspiring to become one, I highly recommend considering the topics we touched on today when building and growing your show. Remember that growing a podcast is more than just focusing on download numbers. It's about building a brand, engaging with your audience, and providing a remarkable listening experience.
To learn more about Greg Wasserman and his expertise in the podcasting industry, I encourage you to connect with him on LinkedIn. Additionally, if you're interested in exploring the benefits of AI in podcasting, take a look at Castmagic and see how it can help you streamline your podcasting workflow.
WHERE TO FIND GREG:
Greg’s Masterclass - “From Pocdaster to Profitable Brand”
Transcript:
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[00:00:00] Brianna: Today we're chatting with Greg Wasserman. He is the Head of Growth, Partnerships and Community at Castmagic. Greg reached out to me on LinkedIn after listening to an interview that I did with another person, And I found him immediately interesting. You'll see that he has quite a following there, And I am not surprised. He really focuses on building communities and helping podcasters grow. Now we get into that today. We get into how you grow your show.
[00:00:27] What does that even mean? What he thinks makes a good podcast. Why Greg doesn't have a podcast himself. And this is a big thing because I don't normally talk to people that don't have podcasts. But after meeting with Greg, I had a good chat to him for an hour and a half, even before having him on the show, to get a feel for whether I felt like he could actually give value to you as the audience.
[00:00:51] And he's just so knowledgeable. He's done so many different things throughout his career. working in the media buying space as well, advertising and sales, and now he's working for Cast Magic. So, I think he's an important person to listen to. if you are interested in him, go and check out LinkedIn, follow him there, and you'll be impressed with what he shares, for sure.
[00:01:13] I want to know straight up What are two things that you love about the podcasting industry?
[00:01:23] Greg: it's community based. I think that would probably be the biggest thing that drew me back into podcasting and why I wanted to stay in podcasting. with a background in partnerships. Partnerships and, podcasting are very similar because they're very community. It's like, how do rising tides raise all ships?
[00:01:39] And so podcasting is all that. It's like, you go on someone else's show, they come on yours. It's all about cross promos. Uh, everyone in the industry is all about like, hey, how do I help you? How do I teach you? it is collaborative. I, I don't know another industry that is like that. the second thing that I love about the podcast industry, The content that comes out of it, the vulnerability.
[00:01:59] I think that's [00:02:00] probably it. very few mediums literally are about that connection with your listener that most likely you don't know who they are.
[00:02:06] If I added a third to it, the fact that you can play the long game, so if you think about it from, uh, personal growth. If you improve 1 percent every day, you think about the compound interest of that. And so what I love about podcasting is, is it's a basis for all this other content you're able to create, and have the compound effect.
[00:02:26] So, you don't know where the episode 3 is gonna turn in 3 years, where someone may be like, Hey, this is something of value and like That is incredible.
[00:02:36] Brianna: Yeah, it's awesome Why do you think then? Most podcasters don't think about the fact that they're actually building a brand When they're creating a podcast.
[00:02:49] Greg: The answer that keeps coming to mind is we do a terrible job educating people in the space on that. if the space is always about, download numbers, so it's vanity metrics.
[00:03:01] If the space is about how do you monetize, and it's ultimately thinking about monetization from a CPM, cost per thousand, so an ad insertion into there, then we are doing a terrible job of actually educating people like, no. You are a brand. Invest in your brand. Invest in you. and you'll see the compound interest of it.
[00:03:21] And so, if it's just a hobby, if you don't actually have a strategy, people are like, I just want to have conversations and just talk to people. It's like, well, what does that actually mean? Like, what is that getting you? what is the point of these conversations?
[00:03:33] You're like, I just want to have conversations, and I'm good throwing away money, and And then I'm going to go like, well, I don't have enough downloads and I want to monetize. And it's like, if that's the, that is the train of thought as opposed to, hold on, how do you engage with people beyond just your podcast?
[00:03:48] And how do you think of podcasts? Like for me, I'm trying to get everyone to go, stop calling yourself a podcaster and start treating yourself as a brand. And once you start treating yourself as a brand, then you realize podcast is your [00:04:00] medium, content creation. And then you can use that for all the other pieces of your brand.
[00:04:05] Brianna: I had an exact conversation like this yesterday with one of our clients. We were having a strategy session and it was like, Oh, you know, I'm not getting the numbers that I want. I asked this client. Okay, what else are you doing? Like, we're giving you your edit. We're giving you really high quality show notes.
[00:04:23] We're giving you video snippets. Where are you putting this stuff? There's so much that you can use, repurpose to build the brand, exactly what you just said from that core piece of content.
[00:04:35] And so it does come back to that. Why are you doing the show in the first place? What's the end goal? And you don't need to actually know. But you need to know enough to go, I'm trying to build more than what I am right now. And how can I build around it? So that I'm using other platforms and other things to make my time worthwhile and to make me more productive.
[00:05:00] Greg: Someone who's like, I want to start podcasting, and they're, learning the whole space. But then, their answer is, I don't like social media, I'm not really a X person, I'm not a Y person, I'm not a Z person. Like, whatever the case may be, you're like, so you learned the skills.
[00:05:17] To build a podcast, but the promotional side, you didn't want to learn about that. These components, you didn't want to learn about that. So, once again, you're staying one dimensional, and you're not thinking about how do you market yourself? How do you market anything? And then, how do you treat yourself as a media company?
[00:05:34] And that's literally what most businesses now are becoming. You look at the big brands, like Nike. I mean, they sell shoes. Or, here's a better one, Red Bull. What is Red Bull's product? It is an energy drink in multiple flavors, right? But what do they actually sell to you as a consumer? Events, experiences, things that have never been done before, and that's like, wow, this is so cool, I want this [00:06:00] drink that's gonna give me wings, right?
[00:06:01] what are you doing as a brand to, wow, to engage, to, , be in other places, besides I'm just having a phone conversation with someone, and I want to record it and have other people listen.
[00:06:11] Brianna: So good. That's really valuable. If you're listening or watching this. Flip and stop it, rewind and go and listen to that again around the branding, the marketing and how you're actually building those things. Just one point there on the Red Bull thing. If you go and look at their Instagram or their socials, there's not really many points.
[00:06:34] I don't know if, whether there are any points actually where it's like they show you the product. They don't do that. They're showing you all the fun things and they're around the brand and what you can do and what the building and all that stuff but they don't go here's this thing that you can drink.
[00:06:51] they're building the experience which is what you're doing through a podcast as well. So take note of that. Very good advice. What do you think in your opinion makes a podcast good?
[00:07:04] Greg: the host is a big piece. there's plenty of hosts that I don't engage with. Just because like, it's just not my style. And I literally started writing a LinkedIn post about this. I'm like, I've always been one not to give advice. Even though I'm an expert. Because I'm like, this is an art that you're creating.
[00:07:23] So who am I to say, Your show isn't good when in reality, I have a duty or people are telling me I have a duty to tell people, but I'm like, all right, I can tell you the sound quality is not the greatest or you don't have good questions. You don't know how to engage. good example. I loved how you're like, Hey, listeners, stop, rewind.
[00:07:45] You're breaking that fourth wall and engaging with someone and going like, you guys, what just said is amazing. Listen to this. As opposed to you and I just having a conversation and forgetting that we actually have someone listening here. You see that a lot. People don't do that. you can [00:08:00] look at ads. I understand people have to make money. But if you are doing ad insertion and I'm hearing an ad for A theater down the street, so I get it, like, I'm getting targeted a local ad that's dynamically inserted there, and I haven't even listened to the show. I don't even know what your show's about, haven't heard an intro, and I'm already getting served an ad?
[00:08:19] Great. Skip. Right away. Like, you've already lost me either as, as a user, or, or, you just annoyed me. sound quality is a big thing. I will always stop listening to a show if If it sounds like you're in a tunnel and I'm like, I don't want to listen to you right now on your zoom call That's being recorded and it sounds like you're in a tunnel I'm not saying you need the greatest mic like I'm on headphones.
[00:08:45] I I know it sounds decent doesn't sound amazing But at least invest in a little something there
[00:08:52] Brianna: basically, if we think about it, podcasting is like another form of social media. You're pulling people into your world. And you're engaging with them without engaging with them, you know, they don't give you the direct response that social media does, but it's still playing essentially the same game.
[00:09:15] It's a nicer game, you don't have algorithms pissing you off all the time, you know, it's a much nicer experience having a show. This is definitely something that people forget, is that you actually do have an audience. It doesn't matter what the size is. You have an audience and people can sometimes get a little bit like, I'm just doing this show for me, or just the conversations that I want to have.
[00:09:43] But if you don't think about what your audience actually wants to listen to, then you probably won't grow as quickly as you could. And the other way that you can track that is looking at the actual metrics. Looking in the back end, looking at your insights. What are people downloading [00:10:00] the most? If you have a YouTube channel, what are they commenting on the most?
[00:10:04] Where are you getting subscribers? If you don't track that sort of stuff, Then you won't build the audience that you potentially could.
[00:10:11] Greg: And so I want to take it even further, but go back to the brand conversation. I loved your analogy here of like, it's a social conversation. And that is also using the podcast in this recording. For those additional social conversations, like I can take this and put it on LinkedIn. I can take this and make it a Twitter thread.
[00:10:30] I can take this and put it as a Reels. Like, you can now have conversations from this one conversation on all these different places. It's funny, like, I listen to a lot of podcasts at the same time I don't listen to a lot of podcasts. I'd much rather, in some regards, give me a newsletter, let me follow you on LinkedIn, and let me see what you post there, and I can read it quickly, because I don't have the time to sit here and listen to everyone's show.
[00:10:55] So if you're expecting the average person to listen to seven podcasts a week, But that doesn't mean that they can't engage with 20 podcasts a week. But now if we refocus our mind in terms of just podcasting, it's 20 brands now a week. And so I can get your newsletter on Thursday, but listen to your podcast on Monday.
[00:11:17] And now I've engaged with two different brands who are speaking to me through the content they're creating from this, podcast. That's the way to have engagement. So you start looking at just, as you said, like, look at the analytics. Well, you can now start looking at the analytics of all those different platforms and have conversations if you're like, this is too overwhelming, like, I can't do all those things, like, I agree with you, maybe 2022 and before 2023, there's tools that allow you to do all that. So it's overwhelming because it's new. And as long as you are willing to lean into this comfort, which you did already to start this show, um, and lean into this comfort of doing this, then the [00:12:00] newness will soon be, Oh, I can do this.
[00:12:01] No different than like the first five episodes. Wow. This is tough. But after. Five episodes ten episodes like this isn't so bad, but most people stop because it's just too discomforting for him.
[00:12:11] Brianna: So then if we go further than that, which is where the conversation now is leading based on what you've just said there, how do you think AI is changing the game for podcasters? Knowing that you work for Cast Magic, which is a very AI based tool, how do you think it's changing the game for podcasters?
[00:12:32] Greg: it is leveling of playing field and those that are willing to invest in their brand and Use tools so someone gave me the great idea like most podcasters Are in a sense solopreneurs, but also that they're doing it is not their dedicated job. They've got something else like that's how Cast Magic was built.
[00:12:54] They literally were running their own companies, had a podcast, like we don't have the time to do this. And all the social promotions, everything I'm just telling you, show notes, blog, newsletter. So they built Cast Magic to solve that. That's now allowed everyone to go ahead and like, whoa, I can take this and become a media company.
[00:13:12] AI is now allowing every podcaster to become a brand, as they should have, but access all of their content, repurpose it, and have a content calendar that is evergreen. You're able to now take your back catalog. I love when people are telling me like, don't listen to my first 50 episodes. And you're like, fine.
[00:13:32] If you were just learning the game in those 50 episodes, let's run this through an AI tool at Cast Magic, repurpose that content, because that was all great stuff. if a person's not listening to episode 1 through 50 and they just started there, well then you can start reposting stuff from episodes 1 through 50 on your social channels, and there's your evergreen content that keeps coming because now you can bring people back in and go like, oh, if you like this idea, you should go back and listen to episode 3.
[00:13:58] If you don't want to listen to episode [00:14:00] 3, hey, at least I'm getting you engaged with my brand right now. So, it is truly creating A lifeblood. And then if you go beyond, once again, beyond podcasting and you look at most podcasters or coaches or, they run a, a lead magnet or running something else, like AI is allowing them to now take those coaching calls and create email sequences.
[00:14:19] It is literally using their words to help create more content and build their business well beyond the, the one spoke of how do I monetize my show with a CPM of, of 20 bucks.
[00:14:31] Brianna: I used that tool yesterday in Cast Magic. I was running a VIP strategy. in the past, I've had someone else from our team then look at it or be on the call as well to then take action points, or I've had to write notes at the same time or whatever. And then this one, I tested Cast Magic's, option there for creating the action points just to see how it went.
[00:14:57] Did a great job. Like, I mean, and I, I'm good because I talk in that way, so I'll wrap things up and I'll introduce and then I'll go, okay, cool. The action points to take away are X, Y, Z. So it was easier, but it was just. It does save a lot of time Anything with AI, it's still not you.
[00:15:17] As in, you can't just take this stuff, copy paste, and you're done. Like, you still need to edit, you still need to give it the personality, the flair, you know. That sort of thing. And that's where that extra time does come back in, but it gives you a really good starting point. And we have clients that obviously we do the show notes for, and we started incorporating, , AI tools probably about six to eight months ago.
[00:15:42] And it's only made what we deliver better. They're still not going to do it themselves because they don't have time. That's why they've come to us. we just use these tools to make a better. result and it's only really just the beginning.
[00:15:57] Okay. So then if we think [00:16:00] about growing a show, how do I grow my show? I get this question all the time. What do you think growing a show actually means?
[00:16:11] Greg: When I was running the three listing platforms, the three questions I always got is, How do I grow my audience? So how do I grow my show? How do I get more distribution?
[00:16:20] So, in a sense, how do I get larger? And how do I monetize? And the answer I always gave back to them was like, Is your show everywhere? Like, because I can tell you right now, your show is not on our platform, so you're missing probably 30%. If you're focused on just Apple and Spotify, and now YouTube from that standpoint, like, great.
[00:16:39] But like, what is growth in that regard? You're missing, you're missing free traffic, you're missing free engagement, free airs, free stuff. podcast movement, they had a great analogy with Joe Rogan. And they showed a picture of, Bunch of guys like probably drinking and it's like whose show is this and everyone's like that's Joe Rogan It's like he knows who his audience is So when you're growing your show, you know Your audience is who you want to speak to you understand what you're trying to accomplish and you're also a brand You're not trying to be everything for everyone. I will argue you're trying to you should be everywhere but within reason like Look, if you're like, I can't, I'm not on X or Twitter, like it's just not my jam for many reasons. But like, that's just not my thing. So focus my energy in other places, but I have no reason not to be in those other places and grow my brand.
[00:17:30] So once again, growing your show is growing your brand and growing your brand is looking at what is your entire strategy? Like, why are you doing this? Who are we trying to talk to? Like all the kind of podcast consulting questions that you're probably asking your client. To literally get them to think about what is the purpose?
[00:17:48] What are we trying to accomplish? And if they're like, I just want to make money by selling ads on it, then I go like, great, let's sit down and actually understand what this business is And that's part of the job of, of, I guess, a [00:18:00] podcast consultant of going, like, how do I get you to think bigger than just, I want to do a podcast, do it for me and hope that I get more downloads.
[00:18:07] It's like, now let's talk and sit down and actually examine all that.
[00:18:11] Brianna: it's definitely more than just your download numbers If you're looking at, I'm not growing because my download numbers aren't growing, then you're looking at the wrong thing. It needs to be a more spread approach. Just like Greg has said there, downloads are one aspect. Where are you? How are people engaging with you on other platforms, on other places?
[00:18:41] Is your newsletter growing? Are your followers growing on LinkedIn or Instagram or YouTube? Is that channel growing? It's not just the download numbers. it's all the other aspects that come together that create the bigger mission. And so when you think about that, I want you to start thinking and looking at the metrics more than just what your download numbers are doing.
[00:19:07] Get a big old spreadsheet, track everything, everywhere that you repost that content. anything where the podcast is spread. You need to track these things and you will see that you're growing more than you realize
[00:19:24] Greg: And there's so many ways to think about, like, you can use the guests that are coming on. So it's like, all right, am I growing my show by literally just having the right conversations with. With the right people and that ultimately is not growing my show, but it's growing my brand And it's opening me up to all these other things so if I think about it is show Brand don't think show think brand if we want to replace podcast with brand show with brand if we start thinking of all those components as a brand and Brand is you then At the end of the day, do you feel like your brand is growing?
[00:19:58] Do you feel like more [00:20:00] people know you? Do you feel like you're influencing more people? Do you feel like you're having more conversations that people are turning into? Once you start that, and you start looking at that lens, you're like, oh, yeah. You actually start feeling even better, too, because, like, I am making a bigger impact than the 200 downloads I'm getting right now.
[00:20:19] Brianna: Alright, Greg. So, I'm putting you in the hot seat here. You're talking all about podcasts. But when I look up Greg Podcast, you don't exist. So, why don't you have a podcast if you love them so much?
[00:20:35] Greg: I've really enjoyed, and I think this is probably a good thing for most people, be a guest in other people's podcast and you start understanding what makes a good podcast.
[00:20:45] Start having conversations with others. Like, a lot of people will go ahead and say, like, I want to start a podcast because I listen to so and so. I'm like, alright, so your basis right now is a show you like, but you don't understand what they do on the back end. You don't understand all these other things.
[00:20:59] most people don't actually take the time and start guesting. And when you start guesting, you start seeing, like, Who asking good questions, who's doing good follow up, who's actually engaging, who's providing you the assets to make you.
[00:21:12] So like it literally allows me to understand how to build a business. So when I decide to actually start my podcast, I've learned from not only all my conversations I get to have through the jobs I've done, but also all the guessing I've been able to do. I think that becomes incredibly powerful. So yeah, hold on.
[00:21:31] Maybe 2024 will be the time that I launched something. Right now I'm just having a fun of, sharing the knowledge, with others.
[00:21:37] Brianna: I've had a really good time chatting to you today, all about podcasting, even though you don't have one. And I only normally speak to podcasters, you know, I've let it happen.
[00:21:48] if you guys want to find out more about Greg, I would say probably the best place is LinkedIn. I really enjoy what Greg shares over there. He does like a [00:22:00] recommendation, post on Mondays, is it?
[00:22:02] Greg: yeah, every Monday. consistent posting. Consistent content is a key thing for being a brand, and so I consistently post on LinkedIn. Every Monday I post three podcasts that I think people should listen to. Take a break from your screens, because I'm literally staring at this all day, and go enjoy something with your ears and still learn and still engage.
[00:22:24] So, I'm always looking for new recommendations. come find me and engage.
[00:22:28] Brianna: Cool. And if you want to try Cast Magic as well, we'll put a link to that in the show notes so that you can have a look at what that looks like. Greg, thank you so much. I'll talk to you later.
[00:22:39] Greg: It was a pleasure. Sounds great. Thank you so much.
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